Talking Data with Simone Pozniak (Webber Wentzel) : Iron Carrot

Season 4 Episode 1

Welcome to Season 4 of the Law Firm Data Governance podcast. I’m CJ Anderson, founder of Iron Carrot, the law firm data governance specialist. I’m thrilled to have a new season of insights about working with information and data in law firms.

Data governance is the key to unlocking your law firm’s potential. But it’s not the only area of data activity that is important for your firm’s success. That’s why, in this fourth season, I’m pleased to share some information, questions, and top tips about the other areas you might want to consider.

Episode Transcript

CJ Anderson
Welcome to Season 4 of the Law Firm Data Governance podcast. I’m CJ Anderson, Founder of Iron Carrot, the law firm data governance specialists. I’m thrilled to have a new season of insights about working with information and data in law firms. Data governance is the key to unlocking your firm’s potential. But it’s not the only area of data activity that is important for your firm’s success.

That’s why, in this fourth season, I’m delighted to share some of my recent data conversations. My guests this season are thought leaders in their own areas. Each has a unique perspective on the importance of data to law firms. Join us as we talk about capturing, finding, using and governing data in ways that can add meaningful value to the firm’s strategy, operational processes, and everything in between.

So, welcome everyone to another episode of the Law Firm Data Governance Podcast. I’m really excited to have Simone Pozniak as my guest this week. She is the Head of Data Analytics at Webb Wenzel, so welcome Simone.

Simone Pozniak
Thank you.

CJ Anderson
I wonder if we could start by just having you explain your current role and your career journey into working with data.

Simone Pozniak
Yeah, so I am currently the Head of Data & Analytics at Weber Wenzel, law firm in South Africa, one of the big five. Started my career actually studied anthropology and evolutionary developmental biology at university, so was always working with data, although in a very different context. And I had studied overseas in the United States and Florida and when I moved back to South Africa, actually had a brief stint in teaching for a while. I taught high school biology and maths. So again, a lot of stats and maths there and data – always loved working with data. Until a friend of mine who was working at a law firm, not my current law firm but another law firm, they were looking for somebody to help in their marketing and business development teams. So, you know, new opportunity, you know, really hadn’t intended on becoming a teacher and so I thought, why not and really I suppose the rest is history. I was doing, you know, the full spectrum of marketing and business development work in that team stayed there till about 2014. And then it was contacted by an old colleague of mine from my previous firm to move over to Webber Wenzel. And so, I’ve been there ever since I was in business development and marketing for a number of years up until about two years ago. Working on the systems and data within the function which was really exciting to me because I got to build it from the ground up because I knew what data and what reports the team needed to be able to work on the systems that they needed. You know at the outset was really quite an exciting opportunity for me. And then I just felt like we had done all the things that we wanted to do with their data and the world became a little bit small. There was other data that needed to be worked on and so that was kind of what led to my transition out of business development and into IT. It’s kind of an intermediate role incubating in IT at the moment because of the work that needs to be done there as data governance lead. And then about a few months ago I was promoted to the Head of Data and Analytics. So it’s been a journey but I’ve been in the law firm sector for quite a while now and yeah excited about the work that we still have to do at Weber Wenzel.

CJ Anderson
An amazing journey and no, not an unfamiliar one where you start with a small pool of data and then your world becomes wider. I think everyone has a different perspective of how good or bad or clever or not law firm data is in terms of where it sits in reference to the wider market I guess or the wider industries that are out there. What’s your perspective of law firm data?

Simone Pozniak
So look I think that it is, there is so much opportunity and so much value in the data that is underutilised until now I think for various reasons. You know we haven’t, law firms haven’t capitalised on the on the amazing data that they have and I think that probably you know this the advent of AI and generative AI has probably spurred a little bit more interest. But until now I also don’t think we’ve been able to mine the unstructured data we’re sitting on to the extent that that we can. So I think it’s changing a little bit but obviously I mean law firms are I think quite far behind on the data journey. I think having spoken to colleagues in different industries, I think yeah, I don’t think that I just think it has been underappreciated or undervalued in terms of operational data. I think as well you know law firms are busy places always been very relationship focused, client focused. And so I think even the operational aspect of running a law firm and keeping the data clean as something that is not necessarily ingrained in the law firm mindset but certainly feel like it’s changing slowly but surely.

CJ Anderson
So essentially, the point made about being started behind the other sectors, What do you think that the kind of law firms could learn from the other sectors, What do you think they’re missing?

Simone Pozniak
So I definitely think that there is, there are opportunities in terms of kind of almost a product, more product focused mindset. So thinking how about how we may, you know, use data to develop legal products or services that we could then you know, sell moving a little bit away from, you know, the billable hour. Know that that’s a contentious, contentious topic, but something maybe to consider. I think the banking and you know financial services sector has been working with data out of because of regulatory requirements for many, many years. So I think there’s a lot of lessons to be learned there in terms of you know regulatory compliance and putting the right foundations in place to be able to you know ensure that our clients privacy, security, access to data, all of those things are taken care of but also the data quality that comes with it and the subsequent improvements to the client experience so I think that’s another area. And then yeah, I think just in terms of operational, you know, data and reporting, I think if you look at the consumer sector and what thing, you know, companies such as you know, Netflix and Airbnb are doing with their data, I think there’s a lot that that law firms could learn from them.

CJ Anderson
There still seems to be a lot of barriers in law firms to taking data seriously. And I don’t know if that’s just history because people don’t want to change or they don’t see data support. What do you think the barrier to taking data seriously is?

Simone Pozniak
I think for me, I’ve actually thought about this a lot over the last few years. I think there’s a maybe a lack of understanding or appreciation for the connection between the data that we capture and then the output. So you know, I think every all law firms, I think every company wants generative AI and they want to use AI and it’s this big hot trend and hot topic. But I don’t think that many people fully appreciate or at least maybe in law firms don’t really appreciate the connection between data and the outputs that are generated from that data in the form of generative AI or you know machine learning models and things like that to be able to derive you know predictive insights and things like that. I also think that there is a lot of, yeah, there’s just a disconnect or lack of, yeah, understanding. You know, we have a lot of complaining, why is my data like this? Why does this report, why is this report wrong? And you know, part of my role, I think part of most data practitioners’ roles in law firms is to connect our data to consumers, our lawyers, our stakeholders, our heads of department, our executives to, our producers. So how did it get there? It’s only reading what’s there. And I think that’s part of our roles And you know, I think traditionally CJ and you’ll know as well from being in the sector for so long, our roles did not exist even a few years ago. So yeah, you know, I think there’s it’s really just about conversations explaining why and how it got and that takes time. It takes time.

CJ Anderson
And have you found that people are receptive to these conversations? Or is it difficult to get people to hear what you want to say or is it, you know, are people open to hearing that they might need to change to get what they want out of their reports?

Simone Pozniak
Look I don’t know. You know, I’ve worked in the law firm sector for so long. I don’t know if it’s all companies that are like this but certainly in the in the legal sector there is a bit of a reluctance to change or you know aversion to change when you’re dealing with quite a risk averse audience. So yeah, I think it’s for me it’s about repetition and different ways of delivering the same message. I can say it one way to one person and you know, the message somehow lands and I’ll have to explain it 3, 4, 5 times, draw pictures you know do cartwheels for another person to really get it. I also think that there are new people coming in and leaving law firms all the time and I think that, you know, it takes constant, you know, repetition. So I think it’s a bit of a combination. I also think there’s a lot of sensitivity around it because we have so many data producers, you know, across the firm, nobody my boss said to me once you know, we don’t, we are all Type A personality. We don’t have ego about ourselves, but we do have ego about our work. So nobody likes to be told that the data that they’re capturing is the thing that’s causing the problem downstream and nobody does it with that intent, you know so I think it’s also about how you deliver the message is really important.

CJ Anderson
That makes sense. Going back to you for a moment and stepping back from kind of your role. I remember that you chose to study for the D Cam certs and I don’t know many other people in law firms who’ve done that. So what led you to look for that certification.

Simone Pozniak
So when I started to delve into the broader data landscape at the firm and the vast amount of work that needed to be done to get us to where I knew we needed to be. You know, as I really started to engage, attend conferences, reach out to people on LinkedIn and came across DCAM as a kind of foundational model that could be used for data governance. There are a few others and you know had also had a few conversations with the EDM council who published this DCAM model and I just thought that it would be good to have a structured approach to manage this program throughout the firm. There are other models, as I said, they they’re all more or less very similar. But it’s not just about, you know, data quality or you know, data governance. There are other things, the data architecture, you know, the business architecture, the technology architecture, you know governance of analytics now which has also come to the fore. And so for me it was about having a structured approach to address all of these things, but all, you know, and a road map of sorts, but also a way for us to then measure progress against our objectives. I think as a data practitioner, we naturally gravitate towards being able to measure progress, to be able to demonstrate, you know, how we progressed. And this framework I felt you know was a really good way for us to do that. I also felt that it added some credibility to the team and to the department to be able to go into the law firms and look, we do know how these things work. We have a framework that is internationally recognised that we are going to follow to achieve this. So it’s not just you know 1 lone soldier walking around with the data flag it. It’s really kind of a tried and tested method to improve that or implement data governance in the firm.

CJ Anderson
And did your firm take that, take that well, do you do you feel it gave it that credibility that that you were looking for or did people not really understand what DCAM was?

Simone Pozniak
Many people may still not understand necessarily know what DCAM is. But I think that the fact that we have a structured approach gives people a sense of comfort that there is a methodology to the way that we are rolling this out and one that is backed by an internationally recognized body. And I think that law firms or lawyers in particular, you know do gravitate or are you know, more prone to accepting I suppose a framework like this over something that is just, you know, kind of unstructured and a bit ad hoc. So, for me I think it has made a difference. I mean we are at the very beginning of our journey. When I say the beginning, I suppose it’s about a year, about a year old now, but even then we haven’t, you know, scratched the surface. We’re dealing, you know, we’re working a lot with our operational business units, although that touches you know on our legal practitioners every single day. So it’s slow, but I definitely think it has added value to our approach

CJ Anderson
Right, I think anything that adds value and helps you get along your journey is, is always helpful. And I know that a few law firms have looked at the Dahmer model as I said. So it’s interesting to hear that you’ve gone for the D Cam model, which is which is slightly different. All models are models. It’s whatever works and helps you on your journey I guess. Picking up on some things you said about AI earlier and the kind of large language models and the machine learning all of that stuff. Do you think that is noise or do you think it’s the push that firms have needed to do data differently to manage it in a in a better way.

Simone Pozniak
I definitely think it’s a push to manage in a better way. I think that the law firm sector in particular is one that stands to benefit immensely our clients as well from this type of, you know, these types of advances. I think if you think about the efficiency saving, there’s a lot of pressure on law firms to be able to bring down the cost of delivering legal services. And so there is a push from our lawyers in particular and our clients to be able to use this you know, these capabilities to deliver you know legal services at a high quality, you know at a reasonable price. So you know look I’m always grateful for anything that encourages our lawyers to take our data more seriously. So if this is the push or the encouragement or the connection that needs to be made to get that done, I’m all for it and I yeah. So I think that’s it’s certainly brought the conversation to a lot broader of a legal or lawyer audience than I’ve seen previously. You know all of a sudden lawyers that had never spoken about data before are now talking about data. So I’m a supporter and I..

CJ Anderson
Taking the win, always take the win

Simone Pozniak
Exactly

CJ Anderson
So with that more excited audience about you know aware of data and wanting to do things with data is there a sense that lawyers are starting to get more interested in driving the data agenda or are they still looking to the kind of operational teams to point them in the right direction.

Simone Pozniak
So I think there’s almost kind of two different areas. So on the one hand, you know when it comes to generative AI, you know contracts automation, you know document automation and things like that. I do see a lot more lawyer legal involvement and we’ve recently or not recently it’s also about a year or two old implemented a legal solutions and technology department and the head of that department is actually a lawyer herself and so she’s driving the I suppose investigation or you know consideration of the different platforms and different options that are available in the market. But the working groups are very much legal. I mean that it’s our lawyers and they are driving it and they there’s huge interest there and almost an urgency that is not coming from the operational teams, it’s coming from the lawyers. So that’s on the one hand on the operational teams to be perfectly honest, I think that they are less inclined you know or less interested in the generative AI, you know machine learning capabilities that could also improve their ability to you know do their work more quickly or to you know remove I suppose rule based repetitive type work from the areas. And I also do think that that you know my experience has been in those areas, the data management aspects to getting the data right, the data capturing the data quality piece is a little bit more difficult because I think a lot of that, I mean you know law firms are very high pressure environments. Everybody already has a lot on their plates and I think that this is always sometimes seen as an additional you know load on the already full plate. So yeah I think I’m seeing more of a push from the legal than I have previously and yeah I suppose a lot of work we need to still do in the operational teams to get them to understand that actually this is going to save time at the end of the day.

CJ Anderson
What do you see as the kind of biggest opportunities for law firms in doing more with their data and the kind of how alongside that what are the drivers behind those opportunities?

Simone Pozniak
Yeah, so again, I think it’s I think it’s 1. the client space, right, I’m probably biased because I came from that space and so I have very much a client focused lens, but it’s really being able to deliver the right services to the right clients at the right time. And if you think about all the data that we’re sitting on that would that can enable that. I mean you know we have you know, client interactions in many different forms all the time. You know who are we speaking to, what are our relationships, what hat are people reading, what contracts have we done, what could be a potential risk for this client given what is going on in the world or their company structure and new legislation that’s been published. So there’s so much that we’re sitting on that I think we could use to improve the client experience. So that’s one I think in terms of financial, you know and productivity, as I’ve mentioned before, doing things faster, quicker, better, using less. So I think that there’s a huge opportunity for law firms to unlock more value from there, you know, resources from their people using data and analytics. And then I think, yeah, even on the employee side of things, you know, the employee experience and learning and development, you know, we need to create space for our people to do things that are not so operational. The world is changing so quickly. I can barely keep up with the amount of learning that I feel like I need to do on a daily basis. And I think that there is an opportunity for us to create the space for people to learn. So whether it’s you know within the flow of work suggestions while somebody’s doing something or based on your profile, you know understanding what would be a good learning journey, so personalised learning journeys and things like that. I think that there’s so much that we’re sitting on that could facilitate this. And then also even in talent acquisition scanning the market, I mean there’s public, you know law firms are one of the few places that have every one of the practitioners details published on their websites. So yeah, I mean if you can identify, you know what skill sets are missing, you know it’s quite easy to match that up to you know, potential talent to fill that fill that gap. So yeah, look I have a list of use cases that I’m just waiting to roll out. But yeah it just takes time.

CJ Anderson
That sounds like there’s a there’s a lot of opportunities out there. I think my final question for you before I ask you for final thought is if someone’s sitting in a law firm and thinking about a role like yours and thinking I don’t know how to I don’t know how to move into data. I’m in a in a marketing team and I want to move into data. What advice would you give that person on how to move more into a data space.

Simone Pozniak
So I think look, definitely, you know, expose yourself to what is out there in terms of learning material. I’ve found so much content, you know, follow. You know, one of my biggest sources of information is actually LinkedIn. I follow lots of people that are in the data space in law firms that are doing a lot of this work, attending conferences. So that’s also always a huge, you know, I find a wonderful place to meet likeminded individuals and network and grow my understanding of what the space looks like. I think within the company itself, if you’re already in a bit of you know in a data role and I’ve had a few people reach out to me recently across the firm is really just start doing it. Nobody is going to say no. If you put your hand up and offer to either fix some data, generate new insights that are meaningful. You know I think that that is you know you almost have to do it before you are given the opportunity to take it on in a in a formal mandated role. I think the third thing is also understanding the business. So it’s just, you know, I think always being able to align your date, your efforts to what is important strategically to the business. Otherwise nobody’s going to, nobody really cares about it, you know. So if you can align your data efforts and even in your little space to something that is important to the company, I think that that’s a way to generate quick wins. Yeah. I’m also happy for anybody, if they’re interested to reach out to me, you know, on LinkedIn or whatever it is happy to help or to provide whatever insights I can provide. I’m also still learning, always learning. So yeah,

CJ Anderson
That great advice and that’s a great offer of support and I think that’s right. I think this is such a new space for law firms that most of the learning is done from other people on LinkedIn and by going out and meeting people because there’s not a lot written down about this stuff or trained on this stuff.

Simone Pozniak
True!

CJ Anderson
I’m going to ask you now for a final thought so to end this, this conversation which has been brilliant. What’s your kind of parting message or or last thought here.

Simone Pozniak
So I think my, yeah, my parting message and something that has really impressed me about this small but close community of data governance, data analytics people across the world is just how open they are to sharing knowledge and sharing insights and learning from one another. And that is really, as I said, you know, I, I read it on LinkedIn when I was first starting on my journey. But I’d, you know, you always think, well, you know everybody says that maybe they, you know, just had an easy experience. But my experience has been the exact same. There is not one person that I’ve reached out to that hasn’t offered to help. I mean CJ yourself have been, you know, instrumental in getting, you know us to where we are, you know, even in our initial conversations. And I found you, you know, on a podcast myself that I that I was listening to, that I just searched for and yeah. So I think it’s really about just getting out there and speaking to other people that that for me is has really has really helped me. And then I also just think that I suppose the last parting word is just in law firms. It’s such an exciting space. I always find I’m always, I suppose, I don’t know, shocked that every time I go to a conference people say to me, but what data could law firms possibly, you know, have or you know that that like why are you here? And I’m often, more often than not the only law firm representative at any of these conferences. And I’m also the first law firm representative that any of them have made at the conference. And when I start to unpack some of the data that was that we’re sitting on some of the data that we have, you know, that that we could and should be using. You know, I think the conversation changes. So, yeah, I think it’s a very exciting space, someone that I’m privileged so they should be involved in.

CJ Anderson
That’s a really upbeat and positive final thought. Thank you, Simone, and thank you so much for joining me on this episode.

Simone Pozniak
Thanks for having me, CJ.

CJ Anderson
Thank you for joining me for this law firm data governance podcast episode, I really enjoyed chatting with Simone about her career, law firm data management and her perspective on AI in law firms. It’s interesting that she felt she had learned so much from hearing from people outside of the legal industry, and that was my one little takeaway. If you liked this episode please share, like and review it so that more law firm leaders can learn about data governance and how to manage data in law firms effectively. And don’t forget to subscribe so that you don’t miss out on any of this seasons data conversations with law firm thought leaders. Or you can head over to irconcarrot.com to get in touch with your questions and ideas for future episodes.