Talking Data with Cheryl Ashman (White & Case LLP) : Iron Carrot

Season 4 Episode 3

Welcome to Season 4 of the Law Firm Data Governance podcast. I’m CJ Anderson, founder of Iron Carrot, the law firm data governance specialist. I’m thrilled to have a new season of insights about working with information and data in law firms.

Data governance is the key to unlocking your law firm’s potential. But it’s not the only area of data activity that is important for your firm’s success. That’s why, in this fourth season, I’m pleased to share some information, questions, and top tips about the other areas you might want to consider.

Episode Transcript

CJ Anderson
Welcome to Season 4 of the Law Firm Data Governance podcast. I’m CJ Anderson, Founder of Iron Carrot, the law firm data governance specialists. I’m thrilled to have a new season of insights about working with information and data in law firms. Data governance is the key to unlocking your firm’s potential. But it’s not the only area of data activity that is important for your firm’s success.

That’s why, in this fourth season, I’m delighted to share some of my recent data conversations. My guests this season are thought leaders in their own areas. Each has a unique perspective on the importance of data to law firms. Join us as we talk about capturing, finding, using and governing data in ways that can add meaningful value to the firm’s strategy, operational processes, and everything in between.

On this week’s episode of law firm Data Governance Podcast, I’m joined by Cheryl Ashman from White and Case welcome, Cheryl.

Cheryl Ashman
Hi CJ, thanks for having me.

CJ Anderson
Let’s start by explaining a little bit about your role at White and Case. What’s your job title and what does that mean that you do?

Cheryl Ashman
Uh, sure. My official role title is the Senior Program Manager for our Business Intelligence group here at White and Case. So my role is one that is really focused on the operational aspects of the team as well as the team itself and how we’re working together, not only as a group in the firm, but also with the different functions and the lawyers and the partners here at White and Case.

CJ Anderson
That’s an interesting, broad role. Did you want to put a little bit about why? Kind of business intelligence BI is becoming a little bit more important to law firms and how your group came about.

Cheryl Ashman
Sure. We’re actually a fairly new group. We officially became a group at White and Case in 2020, and my background actually was one more in the marketing department. But then moved into the marketing, technology and data and analytics space. And when we were forming the group, the group was formed from different functions with people who had been in different data and analytics areas. And so as a result, there was a greater focus by the firm put an A lens put on the data and analytics that we had and how we’re using the data that we had, but also how we’re able to democratise that data across the firm to really give people knowledge and an understanding of how to use the data here. So we’ve been a really great resource in helping this transition for the firm.

CJ Anderson
Picking up there on your role title that program manager that means approaching data with a program mindset. So what’s the benefit there for the data teams that you work with?

Cheryl Ashman
I guess for us here at White, in case our program is one that uses the agile methodology that has been a real key focus for us, which is really unusual for law firms because it’s not something that is normally used in a law firm world. It’s usually used in a technology world, a startup world where they’re developing one big product like Facebook or something, whereas we have a lot of different reportings that we do. But we work in an agile methodology. I am officially a certified scrum coach. I am also a product owners are by product owner and so we have a cadence of meetings to ensure that we are talking as a group and having the communication cycles that we need but not only internally within the group but also with those functions and the stakeholders that we work with, particularly the technology team because we have to have a very close relationship with them. So my role and approaching the data with that program agile mindset is 1 where we’ve established these really key and critical touch points for communication to ensure one that we’re collaborating effectively 2 that we are meeting the users and the stakeholders needs and an efficient and timely manner and that we’re able to really innovate across the firm and come up with a great new ideas and suggestions that span all functions and really lift the data understanding across the firm.

CJ Anderson
I guess my follow-up question then is, is how will people, how have the various functions engaged with that the as it been an easy conversation as it been a, a bumpy conversation didn’t do, do they see the benefits and buy into what you guys are doing?

Cheryl Ashman
Umm, it’s been a drink and we’re taking people on the journey with us. I think when we first started, there was a lot of I guess you could say, upskilling or just really. Bringing people along with us. I think you, I’ve worked in firms before. Umm, I’m formally , I was a lawyer for about 10 years at another law firm and lawyers and business services often work in two silos and then within business services. As I came to the other side, I noted the functions also work in silos and so by us being the Business Intelligence Group, our role is to really start to bring the silos together and we all have to work together. So that is a journey is getting people into that mindset of, oh, this piece of data impacts maybe this other function because they need it for this purpose and having everybody understand the various purposes. That was one interesting journey we have been on. And then the other is working with our technology group as well because obviously there are various different levels that you need to ensure security and privacy. And so how we’re able to navigate through that by also still sharing the data and going through some of those challenges has been really interesting for us and one where we really have to work together with the team and make sure that they’re on board with what we’re doing. We’re on board with what we were able to do, but I think you know there’s a lot of great and fast paced innovation and I think ensuring that we’re all kind of moving in that direction and not getting left behind is really critical. So that’s also been a part of the journey here.

CJ Anderson
So as much about the people is about the data and the tech and the mindset pieces.

Cheryl Ashman
Absolutely, absolutely. People play such an important role. In fact, they’re the foundation. If you don’t have the people really having that understanding you can’t even come up with a process at this that you need to move forward with and don’t even think about the task yet.

CJ Anderson
Thinking about the kind of legal industry more generally because you guys have done it, you know quite successfully in creating your BI team. There’s a lot of noise around barriers to taking data seriously and challenges to data being seen as important in law firms. Why do you think that is? What kind of barriers have you been able to break down that others might be encountering?

Cheryl Ashman
Yes a really great question because I think and again, I’ve got a little bit of my lawyer had on we are keepers of secrets. Law firms, we have a lot of data not only on our clients, but on our people and as technology advances. There are risks to that, and so how do we navigate those risks while still giving people access to that data? And I think there’s sometimes a fear of transparency in that as well. Kind of showing people what might be behind the curtain or how things are evaluated. However, what we have learned is giving people that view, that transparency. For example, we have dashboards that help timekeepers understand, you know, all the metrics that they have from their time, the release time, what they’re working on, their matters, how they’re managing matters. Really helps. Give our people that knowledge that they’re able to take throughout their career. So you’re not only enriching the person you know by doing their legal technical work, but you’re enriching them with the understanding of the data that will be really critical to not only their career evolution, but also how they are working with clients. So if they’re able to also understand client data that we have of the type of work that we’re doing for client bringing in external data about the client and how that all starts to come together. ,We’re really giving them a foundation. So I think the fear is there because of the want to protect and to not spill and to secure the data. However, the benefit of which sharing that data outweighs that. So if you’re able to share it in a very secure manner, there shouldn’t be any harm in doing so, and we’ve been able to do that quite successfully.

CJ Anderson
Sounds like a lot of data there. I think the question I wanted to ask about is, is data governance? Is that a part of your world, a part of the conversations and how does that fit in for you?

Cheryl Ashman
It’s a huge part of the conversation. It is in an essence almost really a foundation to any conversation we have because you’re not able to really work with the data unless it’s properly governed. Understanding who owns the data where the data resides, how the data flows. It’s essential to us operating as a group. In fact, data governance, the way our team is structured. We have an analyst pillar and a pillar of developers known as their specialists, and we have a separate pillar for specifically data governance that works with all the various functions here at the firm and the key technical stewards. We have a proper governance structure with technical stewards of functional stewards and it’s been really insightful to see the importance of governance plays for our success to enable our success and we’re still early doors on our journey. So by no means have we gotten it 100% yet, but we can already see over the last, we’re now coming into the 4th year of the group. How much that governance has helped in terms of how we make changes to data are able to use data, how people are able to use data and the communication that is necessary there to ensure that it’s done so that we’re all using the same data and it’s not stored in one system over here and another system over there. And we’re using two different lists like we’re all using the same pieces of data. So governance plays a very huge role for us.

CJ Anderson
That’s great to hear. And it’s interesting that it’s one team that is a business intelligence and data governance with a pillar rather than being two separate capabilities within an organization. That’s an interesting approach. Are there any downsides to that approach or do you think it it’s working as intended?

Cheryl Ashman
I think it’s working as intended. I think also in a way that we also take on the role as spearheading data governance across the firm. So we hold the torch for data governance across the front and if we’re not using data governments accordingly then you know the spotlight then turns on us. So I guess that’s a possible downside there. You know, we have to live up to hose rules and standards that we are setting for everybody else and we do so. But I don’t see there being a downside to it being under business intelligence, I can see why people may want to have a separate pillar to ensure that maybe it is not governed by one group, particularly and so it has a bit more of a function on its own. But I think for us the size that we are, the firm that we are, we are definitely in the right space. Now if we reevaluate that over time, it could be that we, you know, we look to split through that off. But I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

CJ Anderson
The one thing I did want to kind of pick your brains on a little bit and I’ve asked a few people this question is that there seems to be a split in views about how helpful AI and LLM’s are gonna be for law firms. So do you think they’re just noise, or do you think they might be the post that firms need to manage data differently? Or how do you see them fitting in or not?

Cheryl Ashman
Again, I come up with a little bit of that legal / business services background and as a lawyer I can sit here and be like this is great.

CJ Anderson
Yeah.

Cheryl Ashman
But it’s incredible. Now obviously it will never replace what lawyers can do, but it is a great foundation for starting the research or the argumentation that you need to do the amount of hours I can tell you I set in libraries, reading through things, so at least it can give you that foundational bit that can help you along your journey there, which is I think very helpful. I don’t think it’s just noise. It’s here to stay. I think it’s really important that we all kind of a quick, familiarise yourself in acquaint ourselves with that type of technology. It’s the same as when and now I might be giving away my age when Google first started. You know, we used to have a chat box called like Ask Jeeves and you could ask it a question. I’m really giving away my age now. And when Google came on board and like, uh it’s just the same thing, but the power it had was is one that we obviously see today. See through to today so I see. I feel it has a bit of the exact same trajectory, maybe a bit faster. And then from my BI standpoint, It’s going to become a part of the fabric and so we have to also understand how it can help us with things like predictive modeling and the analytics that we can do to kind of look ahead of the curve, particularly with client relationships. We have and if we’re able to predict or forecast revenues, you know we can give a little bit more certainty or a little bit more context around some of that. And so that’s really, really exciting for us and we’re part of the you know like if you say the back end in the development of it from our standpoint. So we’re really showing people how to use it, but also how do we embed it into the way we’re able to work. So it’s really exciting. I it is here to stay it is definitely not noise. Umm, but it’s it really just comes down to how we use it and that will play the key role.

CJ Anderson
And do you see your team think about the BI team, are they? I’m do they all feel the same way? Are they all equally on board with AI, or do you? Do you have some people who feel that there are other different ways to go?

Cheryl Ashman
I think some are really into it. Some have been into it from the get go and you know are really leaning hard into to it. In fact, use it as probably a good chunk of how they can embed it into their work life. Others, I include myself in that, kind of take smaller baby steps in understanding it. So I know about like that hype cycle that people talk about a lot. You know, somewhere in those really early, early, early adopters and others kind of tentatively slowly go into it. I think there will be a lot of that we must do this quickly and there might be some carnage or package, I guess, along the way. But I think once you get to that leveling off period, it will just become a little bit more consistent. So you’ve got the variations currently, particularly within the group and even across the firmI would say.

CJ Anderson
Yeah, I think that that’s true of most places. I guess there’s people that are really into it and people that are skeptical for now, but no, it’s important and see what’s coming, a stepping back a little bit to just looking at data generally and law firm data I guess I wondered what you see is the biggest opportunities or the biggest drivers for kind of doing more with data in a law firm.

Cheryl Ashman
You know, law firms were all about people and clients. We have lawyers to do the work. We need clients to do work for and the data we hold are in those two gaps. So, I think the biggest opportunity is really how are you leveraging that data to help your people. Maybe even help your people understand their clients to help your people understand their careers and how are you sharing also I guess data with if you are with your clients to help them understand even sometimes you what you’re doing, you know there is that reporting back to clients and how we’re working with them. So,I think that’s probably the those are the key areas that that firms would look to for using data.

CJ Anderson
That’s interesting perspective that that data comes down to effectively people, people in the firm or people at clients and how they want to get to know each other better and do things better. I’m gonna say I’ve run out of questions because that’s been an amazing conversation, and I’m gonna ask you for a final thought. If you’ve got someone, then I’ll offer who’s thinking about data thinking about BI, thinking about data governance. What’s your kind of final thought on something they need to know?

Cheryl Ashman
You know what’s really interesting? I was actually thinking about this and I’m a big fan of why. Always ask the question why. In terms of starting or starting your data journey, why are you starting the journey if you’ve already started your data journey why are you developing certain aspects of your journey? Or why is your vision the way it is? But then also that just leads to the innovation that hopefully a team will have. I’m really excited for the next year to come. You know we’ve there’s so much coming down the pipe as we all know. And so it’s a really exciting time to be working in this space and yeah, I’m really looking forward to seeing what the next few years bring.

CJ Anderson
That’s a really positive thought to end on. So Cheryl, thank you so much for joining me.

Cheryl Ashman
Thanks, CJ. Really appreciate it.

CJ Anderson
Thank you for joining me for this law firm data governance podcast episode. I really enjoyed chatting with Cheryl on the Business Intelligence Team and how it intersects with Data Governance. Her thoughts on having a focus on people being the key for fast paced data innovation in law firms was an interesting perspective. And her final thought was particularly insightful. I will certainly be asking why much more often. If you liked this episode please share, like and review it so that more law firm leaders can learn about data governance and how to manage data in law firms effectively. Don’t forget to subscribe so that you don’t miss out on any of this seasons data conversations with law firm data thought leaders. Or you can head over to irconcarrot.com to get in touch with your questions and ideas for future episodes.